Episode 6 – Integrated transport is about systems thinking and creating connections, Prof. (Dr) Anusha Shah, Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE)
Epsiode intro
Hello and welcome to the final episode of season 1 of The Interchange Podcast. Today’s guest is Prof. (Dr) Anusha Shah who is the 159th President of the Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE). She is only the 3rd female and the first person of colour to take on this high-profile role.
In this interview, we talked about:
how we should all be taking a systems thinking and nature based approach
why we must accept the climate emergency and use every opportunity
the need for connections, understanding behavioural science and the psychology behind consumers and travel behaviour
why engineers must be more empathetic and understand more about the communities they’re designing for.
The Interchange Podcast is produced in association with Arcadis and interviews leading changemakers and thinkers about how integrated transport infrastructure is the solution to achieving a more effective and decarbonised transport network. The Interchange Podcast series is part of Interchange, which centres around a two-day major event about rethinking transport infrastructure taking place in Manchester on 27/28 February 2024. If you’d like to attend, you can book your place here.
Professor Anusha Shah
Professor Anusha Shah is the 159th president of the Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE). She has held numerous positions within ICE, including as ICE Senior Vice President, the first female chair of ICE London, and a member of the ICE Fairness, Inclusion and Respect Committee. Anusha has 23 years’ experience in water and environmental projects and is currently a senior director at Arcadis, working on climate adaptation and resilience, as well as a seconded senior director for High Speed 2. She is a visiting professor at King’s College London and University of Edinburgh, and a non-executive director for the Met Office. Anusha has won many awards including a UK Women Engineers Sustainability Award and Inspiring Engineers Award.
“Integrated transport delivered by looking at it from a systemic perspective. And allowing an end-to-end connection from the first mile to long-distance transport and to the last mile. It is about thinking of it in a way that is connected to the places around, it's about connecting it to people and to the environment.”
Resources and Links
Institution of Civil Engineers
About Interchange UK
The Interchange Podcast series is part of Interchange, which culminates around a two-day major event about rethinking transport infrastructure taking place in Manchester on 27/28 February 2024. If you’d like to attend you can book your place here.
Transcript
SPEAKERS
Anusha Shah, Ayo Abbas
Ayo Abbas
Hello and welcome to the last episode of season one of The Interchange Podcast. Each episode looks at how we can make integrated transport delivery happen and involves me Ayo Abbas, interviewing, leading changemakers and thinkers from the sector. This podcast is kindly sponsored by our Arcadis. My guest today is Anusha Shah, who was the senior director for Resilient Cities and UK climate adaptation at Arcadis. And she's also serving her term as the 176, president of the ice, where she's only the third female to take on this role, and the first person of colour nonetheless, in our enlightening conversation, we talked about how we should be taking a systems thinking and nature based approach to integrate delivery, why we must accept the climate emergency and use every opportunity to do something about it. The need for connections and bringing people together, the importance of understanding behavioural science and the psychology behind why consumers and people travel, the need for engineers to be more empathetic, and how they need to get to know more about the communities we're designing for. Anyway, I'll stop talking so you can hear the interview. Enjoy. Hi Anusha, thanks so much for coming onto the show. Can you explain a bit more about who you and your role at Arcadis and what you're doing at the ICE?
Anusha Shah
Hi, oh, thank you very much for having me. So I'm Anusha at Arcadis. I work as a Senior Director for Resilient Cities. And I'm also a UK Climate Adaptation Lead. By training, I am a civil engineer and my master's has been in water environmental engineering got nearly 20 to 24, wash 25, I think years of experience, mostly water and environment, but weakly across other infrastructure sectors as well. They do a lot of industry roles. As you know, I am the current president for the Institution of Civil Engineers. I also sit on the Met Office as a non exec director. And I'm a trustee with The Green Alliance. And I was just a visiting professor as well.
Ayo Abbas
How do you have the time?
To be honest, it's that's what I say the same message. My whole passion is around addressing the climate and nature emergency, and how we use that as an opportunity to really redesign our world which works for everyone and in harmony with environment. So it's just across all my rules, it is I have the same ethos, but I just use the platform, documents of it, whether it's Met Office in terms of climate science and data and influencing there, to day to day operations in Arcadis to ICE looking at the pan industry, what changes we need to make. At Green Alliance it's more about them policy influencing, it's really an amazing, they punch above their weight, I'm just starting with them. So I haven't done much with them. But yes, looking at the whole thing, from policy to implementation, from data to behaviours, I really do believe in the whole systems. It needs a system change to actually make, you know, get some success and all this.
Ayo Abbas
Fantastic. And when it comes to integrated transport infrastructure, what does that mean to you? And I guess, why is that important?
Anusha Shah
I think before I talk about the integrated transport, I just like my listeners to really kind of close their eyes for a few minutes and imagine, you know, imagine a world where town centres and places are smog free, full of thriving green ecosystems with more cyclists and pedestrians than cars. Imagine living in a home with enhanced ventilation, shading and insulation home that runs off renewable energy. And there's a garden or a roof and a balcony system that grows food to imagine having a strong community system which is prepared for any disaster. We have early warning systems on our smartphones, but also with a backup mechanism to mobilise community to support each other if needed. We have reduced our consumption and we only buy what you need, and anything extra we are able to share or resell at the click of a button. Imagine we have everything we need from work food to retail to social hubs to public health facilities, technology hubs, within 15 or 30 minutes of travel. And we when we do need to visit a friend or a relative or need new opportunities or need to meet someone for business in a far off city. With one click, we book a cycle, and affordable return journey, bus ride to the station, electric train or tram past some beautiful open green and blue spaces. And for the occasional car travel, we have easy access to very cool charging points. And we listened to the news and we hear we are on track to meet that country's net zero targets. We have doubled our biodiversity our flora and fauna. And we see people, previously lonely people interacting with each each other and neighbourhood hubs, we see more happy faces. I mean, this is the type of vision, and transport is, as you can see a core part of it. And I see if you see technically the definition of integrated transport is almost like multimodal transport involving different modes of transport to maximise ease and efficiency for user in terms of time, cost, comfort, safety, accessibility and convenience. I think I just want to think of it very simply, it is a mode a multimode, which just, it's all about connections, it's about connecting people to the environment. It's about connecting people to opportunities, it's about unlocking those opportunities for people. It's about fairness, it's about connecting people for good health and well being. It's it's about looking at it from a systemic perspective. And you know, allowing that end-to-end connection from the first mile to the long distance transport to the last mile and thinking of it in a way that is connected to the places around, it's connecting to the people to the environment. But in a way, ultimately, as my theme for my presidential theme is around, how do you make connections for a nature and people positive world? And that connections involves this multimode transport? And that's how I see it. So
Ayo Abbas
it's really for connecting people and they're the centre of every thing, right, in a way
Anusha Shah
but in harmony with the environment. Not not at the environment, in a way that enhances the environment. Yeah.
Ayo Abbas
So what enablers and what sort of blockers do you see happening in terms of making integrated transport with nature in the environment from happening?
Anusha Shah
Oh, gosh, where do I start? Okay. To be fair, I think the intent is there. I mean, you see, you know, you pick up any document from, you know, Network Rail, TfL, or other transport authorities around the world, everyone's really trying hard. And everyone's talking about systems thinking. But I think the current, the current systems we are set in are not in line with what our ambitions are. So I think it needs a fundamental shift to what we have created. And I think we have created the systems and we are the system, we can't look at someone else to change the system. We are part of the system. So I think that's quite important to know. And, and the systems are not just hard infrastructure systems. That is quite important. And I've been listening to some fascinating podcasts from Rory Sutherland, who's who you may know, I think he spoke at theInterchange conference last year as
Ayo Abbas
advertising guru, but talks about loads of different topics.
Anusha Shah
He does, but what I like about him is he really brings in that humanistic view that you know, cut everything out, and what are we actually doing? Why are we doing things? And who are we doing things for, and he really talks about that we tend to really dominate he talks something like it tends to get dominated by reductionist method. And he says, when we are designing transport systems, we really dominated by speed, time efficiency, you know, things that are quantifiable that so you design a transport system that gives you all that and then you convert it into money, and how much does it save? And you know, all that stuff? That is important,
Ayo Abbas
very hard, though, isn't it? It's all very
Anusha Shah
hard metrics. He calls it that there's no SI system for other things. So yeah, and those other things are what, and I completely agree with him is about what humans deeply care about. Is it you know, are you enjoying the travel? You know, what kind of emotions are you going through in your travel? And ultimately, you have to think about people people's lives are quite complex. You don't know when they're travelling, what are they travelling for? You know, it could be someone having some relationship crisis, it could be someone who's going to meet their parents who are not well, who are poorly or someone could be just going just to get engaged. You don't know what kind of emotions are going through people's minds. And it's really important to understand that to understand that psychology behind the travel. yeah, And bringing in those neuroscientists and psychologists as part of understanding consumer behaviour, and what must go in their mind. So if it's like a five minute delay for someone who's just going for a leisure trip, it doesn't really matter. But if it's a five minute delay for someone who has to see an ailing patient, it really matters. Yeah. But what would matter is how the transport authorities are communicating the delay that allay their fears. Yeah, we were having a really good roundtable as part of my presidential visit in the south west, we were talking about how people when they get stuck in a traffic jam, they just accept it. But if it's a five minute delay in the train, people get all really irked about it, right. But had there been announcement saying in a humorous way or in a nice in an empathetic way that these five minutes, you can just please go and have a cup of coffee, we are working on it or you know, all about communication. Or if there is a separate and this isn't kind of thinking aloud here, it's like if you had a separate team of people or separate, you know, someone who has an urgency, someone who just talks to them, you know, at that time and see why it was important for them, why this five minutes, and helping them in a different way. So I think bringing that humanistic ethos to the whole transport system would go a long way. And I think this is our opportunity when we have that's why I say climate and nature emergency is the biggest opportunity we've ever had to redesign our systems. So this is a system that when we are thinking of decarbonisation, we're thinking of making resilient transport systems. Whilst we are doing that, how do we bring about people at the heart of these conversations, but in a way that also helps the entire system? When you're planning a tram system? Are you planning hydrogen buses? Are you also looking at places where you can have, nature based solutions around it? So you hit all that with one stone? You know, it's like, you can you can really kind of do multiple things and think of multifunctionality while you're at it. So you don't have to come back in a decade and say, well, actually, we can do something about nature here. We just completely forgot about
Ayo Abbas
retrofit afterwards. Let's go back and go. Exactly. It shouldn't be a new retrofit, I think it's about once we are thinking about let's have a fundamental systems change. But I guess is a blocker therefore, the way that we're set up at the moment, which is quite separate, isn't it, you would give this money to do this certain projects and this for the road? And that's for the housing part. And you know, for this?
Anusha Shah
I think so. And, you know, I think we have created some of the things we are structural silos, the way we created departments, which I understand, but I think there are silos within our minds as well. I think the mindset needs to change. So when we are planning a system, we're planning events and integrated transport system or a water system, I think everyone should be a systems engineer or a planner, it's like have connected the dots with everything else that can impact the system or where they impact the system. I think you have to go through those filters, and say, what are the opportunities we can make? If you're talking about electric vehicles? If some of that, you know, releases some of the parking lots? Are you just letting those parking lots sit there for a few years? Yeah, are you actually using that land for sustainable urban drainage system, a few parks which can take away the water, you know, it's about connecting, thinking, it's about how to utilise every space for the benefit of people and other species. So use every opportunity. So I think it's that's why what is systems thinking mean in practice? I think it's breaking those silos in our minds. And talking to each other and talking, even breaking the sort of silos. One is breaking within the silos, water, transport energy, but it's also breaking silos, between professions. That's why I'm quite fascinated by like, the psychologists, you have to speak to the social scientists, have to speak to landscape architects, and that means people, missions, people, you know, that's it. And also, I would say, ultimately, the communities you are designing for, and we are a part of the community, we might be professionals, but sometimes we have to, you know, step outside of professional zone and step into the shoes of other people. So that's empathy. You know, how are you as a commuter? So, sometimes we get so driven by how we are designing a transport system, all the technical things which are very, very important. You have to have an optimised transport system. But sometimes it's very important to step out of that so or even speak to your families? How would you know check your designs with your families who are from a completely different mindset? Like, is it safe? Would it be safe for a mother to let her 11 or 12 year old, travel alone on a train safety is very, very important. You might design the best transport system in the world. But if people don't feel safe and confident, then what good is, you know, I'll give you an example. Like I was talking to a friend of mine, and we were talking about inclusivity, in general, and we were talking about how would integrated transport be for people with ADHD. And while whilst we say it's everything is like, you know, on the touch of a button, you can just book the entire transport system, whether it's a cycle that a bus and or a tram, and then a trip, and it's all connected. But what would it be for any person with anxiety? They need to know, because you don't want to increase the anxiety, they need to know exactly what time it's going to be. And how are they going to get there? They don't want to get nervous, you know? So how do you give them the confidence and reassurance and we really both of us were thinking about it. And as soon as like, I think as long as you've communicated to them, and tell them what you do that it's all in hand and you're dealing with it, they will be fine. So it comes around communications, right? So I think if you had to really ask me what is it that we need to do, it's being empathetic people from all walks of life, and sometimes you can't design for everyone.
I was recently in Hong Kong, and I observed when you cross the road, you can hear the sound when the traffic lights go red, and then yellow and green. And so people who are partially sighted can hear the sound I was quite impressed. I know we have a similar sound, but it's not as loud. And you know, it's a little bit lighter in the UK. So I was discussing this case at a roundtable recently, the Southwest presidential visit. And one lady slightly challenged me and said, but this would not be good for people with ADHD. And she was right that they would suddenly kind of you know, they won't feel comfortable with this loud sound, then I was thinking maybe that's for people who are in the minority or have a different ability could have a gadget in their hand. And they could press something, so they don't hear the sound. So, there are ways to do work around people with different abilities. But that's where we have to put our efforts in is looking at what is the demographic? How many people are partially sighted who would benefit most? And what are the provisions but not what we can't do is completely ignore that source. It's really important to design for people, as many people as we can, and for whom we can't design, there should be some other options to mitigate that.
But these are the things it's like a new scope of works, you know, we have to start thinking deeply about what makes people safe, happy. You know, what, what will help them what is for the convenience, something that that you know, so it's thinking deeply? I think it's the first time whilst you are addressing the climate and nature, emergency and all the challenges around what we have, whether there's traffic congestion, pollution, all sorts of things. Think a bit deeply. Don't think how you've always thought it's connected it to what are the different aspects we can bring together and think deeply from and think empathetically, is what I'm saying?
Ayo Abbas
Empathy is really, really important, isn't it to understand other people's positions? And we don't always do that do me in terms of infrastructure? What else do you think we should be doing as an industry to make this happen and your vision happen? Are there things we can do?
Anusha Shah
I think we should definitely think about active travel. The first mile and the last mile, at least I would say. At the moment where we are is I don't think we safety. It's not safe. You know, I know a friend of mine, Kate Cairns, she's championing safety for road users. Yeah, cycling, it's not safe. We still have it HGVs, we still have we have a long way to make we still have accidents, we still have people dying on roads. But equally, we have a challenge. We have to decarbonise, we have to make sure that people are healthy. And cycling is the best form. You know, it's health and wellbeing all the multiple benefits you get. But we still not bringing safety. Right. So I think it's really important to get the right type of people who have solutions and listen to them. And I think we wish we know what the blockers so why aren't we removing those blockers? Why aren't we having that intent and why are we are hamstrung by the systems which are stopping us. And that's fine saying we have created the systems and we can change the systems we are the system. So, I think it's about making active travel safe for people. Because so the first mile if you can make it safe for people so it makes them healthy, it's less, you know, of course reduced for NHS it's multiple cuts right? So I think all these people's you have to get unconventional partnerships, you know, get NHS partnered with the transport system, I'm sure it must be happening in pockets. But how do you make it? You know, how do you get the health systems in place? How do you get the right people on the table when we are planning a social scientist, a psychologist, a marketing person, a communications person, technical person, a doctor, because ultimately, we're also looking at air pollution, you know? So how do you make sure that you're designing from, you know, looking at the holistic view of things. So active travel, definitely, and then electrifying it, there's no one solution to all these things. That's why we're king about integrated transport. We cando things, at least we are, when we are looking at it, we are happy in our own, you know, no spheres that we have looked at it from all angles. And you can't satisfy everything every time. But as long as you have looked at it, and you have given it a shot, and then whatever you looked at and and because of ABC reasons, you were not able to do it. That goes in the R&D box. You know, that's the question for our academics and say, this is this was a blocker. How do you how do you think this? What will help us? So I think it's the societal approach, you know, we don't have all the answers not. So it's kind of connecting to things that can bring us answers with things that are difficult and goes in the difficult boss, and we do some r&d.
Ayo Abbas
So own that type of agenda. Is it a political agenda? Or is it you know, what I mean? I think it's everyone's agenda we are in we are in an emergency, you know, something like COVID, I don't think at COVID time, we everyone had to take care of their own safety on their own health. It's almost like that, you know, in an emergency situation, you don't look for whose agenda it is. It's everyone's agenda, we all have to play a part. That was true, actually. And actually, their behaviour the most some of the behaviours, some of it was dodgy, but some most of the behaviours were everyone actually chipped in and said, right, we quickly we need to how do we build this? How do we actually so that it can happen?
Anusha Shah
Yeah, everyone chipped in. When you look at the did you ever think Dyson and others would actually be designing ventilators? But they did, right? So you need that mindset of everyone pulling together and say, Okay, how do we make it right? But of course, there's some of the systems the blockers have to go, we don't have to bring in communities, when we've already done the outline design, we have to bring in communities right at the drawing board right at the start. When you are conceiving the project, we know, post COVID A lot of people our work patterns have changed. Some of us are working at home, yes, people have started going back to work, but it's still like three days from home or two days from home. So do we need the transport systems what we have planned for earlier? Should they be changing? Do we need demand responsive transport system? You know, those are the things that's where our energies should be going to, and also bringing in the communities and communicating with them. So say, we're designing it for you, you have a part you have and of course, you can't satisfy everyone. But that's where you need the art of negotiation, the art of showing as long as it's good for people and environment. I don't think we can go wrong. You know, it's by health and well being if you put all these metrics at the top, and physically and technically, sometimes things are not possible. But if you communicate the, you know, the communities they're intelligent enough to understand, but sometimes I don't think we are the best communicators as technical engineers that why you need help from others, right?
Ayo Abbas
No, sometimes it's like hard numbers. And you're like, this really is not exciting. It is to you.
Anusha Shah
That's what you need. Sometimes people like Rory and others to really say we haven't talked about, you know, it's engineers are not thinking about it. One of the reasons my presidential year is about making connection is opened the door for other people, because ultimately the designing it for society. And society has people of all walks of life. So we have to understand our end consumer, isn't it?
Ayo Abbas
It's so so important, and especially I suppose if you look at when you look at equality, you know, equality and diversity and inclusion as well. Right. And it's that whole agenda of who are we designing for? Is this representative of society and the communities that with you know, it's, it's all of that fundamentally. And what sort of trends are you seeing are people becoming more open to this agenda when it comes to delivery in the systematic way?
Anusha Shah
see some green shoots. You know, as I said, I was at the presidential visit to south west and it was actually a roundtable organised by the early careers and they, they had a topic around rural communities, and how many times do we think about that? We don't, we are not thinking about the deeply about, you know, when we talk about cities and transport most, I think majority of the times we're talking about cities, urban places, and they had an agenda about rural communities. They had about you talking about the last mile or the cycling and walking, they have issues like it's not lit up, they don't feel safe at night, you know, the rural roads don't have lights. So even things basic is that I think people have started to think about the real things the basic things. And, and those conversations are happening. I think what is not happening is that systemic change the shake up the radical shift, we are just tinkering around the edges still. And that's the problem. I
Ayo Abbas
I'm gonna say, how can we do that change? Is there any way?
Anusha Shah
I think its leadership, its leadership, is getting the right leadership, the leaders to think boldly, leaders to get rid of the status quo, and try to do things they've never done before getting out of their comfort zones. So I think it starts from the leadership at all levels, whether it's a client, it's the supply chain, it's the politicians is everyone. And we know, I know, we keep talking about but the policies are not there. And what do we do about the policies? I just see it as different swim lanes? Yes, you have to push policy? Don't stop that. But equally, do what is the new capacity, stretch the envelope, crack on with things.
Ayo Abbas
do what where you can exactly.
Anusha Shah
Get those. And if even if you fail, that failure is also gold dust for someone who's doing research, right. And also where you are successful, get those stories out, share it with the politicians, and politicians love stories, you know, especially communities. And that could push policy. And that's what I keep saying you have to find creative ways to make change happen.
Ayo Abbas
I completely agree. Yeah, you do. And I think it's like, find the ways you can make it happen, and then show them the value and what you've done, because that's the thing, isn't it half the time, it's like, oh,
Anusha Shah
I think we can do it. I just have I, I really believe and I'm confident in the human ingenuity. You know, we have done things which when you're thrown in that corner, we've done things we've never done before, but I just want people to understand that we are in that corner, we have less time. It's you know, we talked about 2050. We're already in 2023? Did we like you know, time is flying? We don't have the time? How do you go? It's 2024 sorry. Like before we know it's 2030, you talk about the UN SDGs 2030 is around the corner 2050 net zero is around the corner, it's just time is flying. I think all I'm saying is we should do at each level, whatever is within our capacity within our roles, within our zones of influence. Get that connected thinking think about people think about nature, keep them at the heart of your solutions, and where you can't communicate it better. And if you can't do it on this project, try in another project. But don't stop moving. Don't stop. You know, it's okay to be getting uncomfortable around these things because that's when change happens. So I think we need to be a bit bold. We need to if your intent is right for the people for the health and well being of people and planet. I don't think you should be scared. There's nothing that should stop you. Fantastic.
Ayo Abbas
I don't know. I'm gonna say thank you very much for coming on to the show. Hope you enjoyed it. Thank you. It's really really good. Thanks for listening to Interchange. And remember, it's not just a podcast interchange is much more. It's also a two day major exhibition and conference taking place on February the 27th and 28th in Manchester Central, head to www.interchange-uk.com to find out more.
