Episode 9 – The interconnected role of energy and transport with Andy Clarke, Costain and James Rowntree, WSP
Epsiode intro
The latest episode of The Interchange Podcast is out now and features Andy Clarke, Integrated Transport Director from Costain and James Rowntree, Director of Strategic Growth and Major Projects, WSP. They discuss integrated transport delivery but from an energy perspective and as Andy succinctly puts it: “There isn't a transport system without energy as transport consumes about a third of the energy produced in the UK.”
In this episode we talk about:
the close link between energy and transport and how we have to get them to work better together better to deliver a low carbon transport network.
how integrated transport delivery is about creating a connected system that includes transport, energy, policy, finance and much, much more.
the rapid investment and ambitious development pipeline to upgrade our electricity grid infrastructure.
the role of innovation with technology such as hydrogen and battery storage, which we will need to develop hit the targets our net zero targets.
the rising importance of local generation and for multiple energy generation solutions.
Produced in association with Arcadis , The Interchange Podcast interviews leading changemakers and thinkers about how we can make integrated transport infrastructure happen. This season’s discussions fall under 4 key themes: Place, Data and Digital, Energy and Environment.
The Interchange Podcast series is part of Interchange, which is a platform that culminates in a thought-provoking two-day major conference being held on 04/05 March 2025 at Manchester Central. Both Andy and James are on Interchange’s Energy Workgroup and are helping to shape the programme for the Interchange conference next year. Event registration has just gone live, and you can get your free ticket now.
Andy Clarke
Andy Clarke is the Director for Integrated Transport at Costain. He is passionate about delivering decarbonised, seamless end-to-end journeys. At Costain, Andy is responsible for creating multi-modal transport solutions which leverage cross-sector collaboration, new approaches and digital technologies to enable healthier, happier and better-connected communities. He is committed to accelerating the green transport revolution, not least through the development of hydrogen fuel.
“There isn't a transport system without energy. Transport consumes about a third of the energy produced in the UK.”
James Rowntree
James Rowntree is the Director of Strategic Growth and Major Projects at WSP, responsible for leading strategic growth and improving major project performance, with particular focus on the Energy Transition. James currently leads the team as Enterprise Director for WSP on National Grid's Great Grid Upgrade programme, the largest overhaul of the electricity grid in decades. Prior to joining WSP two years ago, James was Vice President on the European Leadership Team at Jacobs and Programme Director for the Delivery Partner on Phase 1 of HS2. James is also a Fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
“To enable this energy to flow to where it's needed, we need to build a lot of infrastructure across the UK. National Grid, has the strap line that they have to build five times as much transmission network in the next seven years than has been built in the last 30 years.”
Resources and Links
National Grid - The Great Grid Upgrade
About Interchange UK
The Interchange Podcast series is part of Interchange, which culminates around a two-day major event about rethinking transport infrastructure taking place in Manchester on 4/5 March 2025. If you’d like to attend you can book your place here.
Transcript
SPEAKERS
Ayo Abbas, Andy Clarke, James Rowntree
Ayo Abbas 00:00
Ayo Abbas, hello and welcome to The Interchange Podcast, which is kindly produced in association with Arcadis and hosted by me. Ayo Abbas. Interchange culminates in a two day conference taking place in Manchester Central on the fourth and fifth of March 2025 we've just opened bookings for the show, so if you want to get your ticket now, just head to www.interchange-uk.com, now let's get back to today's interview.
Ayo Abbas 00:30
My guests today are Andy Clarke, who is the Integrated Transport Director at Costain, and James Rowntree, who is WSP's Director of Strategic Growth and Major Projects. In today's episode, we look at the close link between energy and transport and how they are intertwined, so how we have to get them to work together better to deliver a low carbon transport network. We talk about how integrated transport delivery is, about creating a connected system that includes transport, energy, policy, finance and much, much more. We looked at the rapid investment and development pipeline that's involved in improving our electricity grid infrastructure. And finally, we looked at innovation and technology such as hydrogen and battery storage, which we will need to develop pretty quick so that we can hit the targets that we set in terms of net zero. Anyway, enjoy the show.
Ayo Abbas 01:24
Hello and welcome to The Interchange Podcast. Andy, can you introduce yourself please? And your role?
Andy Clarke 01:31
Hi, yes. Good morning. I'm Andy Clarke, and I'm the Director for Integrated Transport at Costain.
Ayo Abbas 01:36
okay. And James, can you introduce yourself please?
James Rowntree 01:39
I can indeed. Thank you very much. Ayo, so yeah, James Rowntree, I'm Director of Strategic Growth and Major Projects at WSP, but also, since April, I'm the Enterprise Director for our role on the Great Grid Partnership Programme with National Grid.
Ayo Abbas 01:53
Fantastic. Now you are both on the Interchange working group for energy, so which is why we brought you here today, and what you're going to be doing is meeting three times a year to help shape the energy part of the conference, which is happening next year in March. So I guess from your perspective, I'll start with James. What does integrated transport infrastructure mean to you?
James Rowntree 02:15
Well, it's a meaning that's evolved over the years, hasn't it? So if I go back in my career, when I worked on HS2, it was really about how journeys could be interconnected, so how rail will connect to public transport, would connect to road networks and and really from a customer benefit, in terms of that sort of whole, whole journey experience, obviously integrated transport then links into the economy and how does transport support economic growth more generally? But I think increasingly, as we move towards net zero decarbonisation of transport infrastructure, integration is also becoming about, how do we integrate across infrastructure? So particularly around, how does the energy industry, energy sector support transport, decarbonisation?
Ayo Abbas 03:12
And for you, Andy,
Andy Clarke 03:13
yeah, for me, integrated transport is a seamless, connected, decarbonised and digital system, which has put a customer at the heart and building on what James said, what integrated transport is. It's a pivot from where we've come from in terms of the way we approach transportation, in terms of our planning and the design. So we're looking at transportation as that integrated system, not as individual silos against each of the mode of transport. And if we, if we look at the transportation as a system and a fully integrated system, then we could get that modal shift people out of cars onto the public transport, and that will help us to achieve net zero.
Ayo Abbas 04:00
So I guess in terms of what's the connection, I'm going to add an extra question, what's the connection between energy and transport? How do they how do they influence each other? Would you like to start with on that one? Maybe. Andy,
Andy Clarke 04:11
yeah, well, quite simply, there isn't a transport system without energy. So energy can a transport consumes about a third of the energy produced in the UK. So what we've got to do is transport needs to be a, you know, a seat of the table having those conversations with energy. How do we get the energy into the transportation networks that we've currently got? What does the transportation of the future look like, and how do we get the energy there? So it's a fully integrated system between energy and and transport. You can't have one without the other.
Ayo Abbas 04:45
And James, have these kind of discussions between the two areas. Been happening before, or was it more siloed? Or what was your experience of that?
James Rowntree 04:52
They've always happened, but they're happening increasingly so. So Andy's quite right. So we need an energy an system to support the transportation network. As we move to more alternative sources of energy, so moving away from fossil fuels, moving more towards renewable energy, hydrogen, electrification, then we need investment in energy infrastructure and and that investment in energy infrastructure is needed to support transport decarbonisation.
Ayo Abbas 05:23
Fantastic. That's really useful. And what kind of enablers and blockers are there in terms of, I guess, changing our kind of makeup of energy and making, I guess, so that we can actually deliver integrated transport Andy?
Andy Clarke 05:36
So the positive and some of the enablers. So we need clear government policy to start off with in that energy space, give confidence to the market to invest, and that actually, one of the enablers is not to just think about replacing one energy source with another. So it's not diesel or or petrol to battery electric or like, James said, it's, you know, there are going to be a whole raft of different forms of energy consumption in the future, and we need to take a different approach to to that. So from an enabling point of view, we need to take a national approach, but regional approach and a local approach. Because I think how do you get energy to where it actually is consumed? In terms of the blockers, obviously there's new energy types, new modes of transport, needs, new technologies, and in order to provide those new sustainable modes of transport in the future, we're going to need to have a supply chain in place to help deliver that innovation. So we need confidence and policy from the government in order. So it then gives confidence to the market, then to go and invest, and then we need to then look at the regulation. Is it as another key part, I want to say as a blocker, but it regulation needs to pivot, so as we don't sort of just take what we've done and evolve. So if you take the like of the petrol car. We went from a horse and cart to to a car, which was transformational. We need to go from a car now to whatever the future decarbonised transport looks like, and and the cars evolved over 70 years. We've only got 10 to do to do the new transport. So we've got to do it at pace, which is going to be a mindset shift in the way that we operate transport, and the future of transport in the UK.
Ayo Abbas 07:27
And have you got any more kind of challenges and enablers that you think are really pertinent? James,
James Rowntree 07:30
I think it's, it's a really interesting ecosystem. I think I mean it to my mind, it starts with the drivers. So, so why are we going on this decarbonisation journey? And it's often helpful to step back and look at the why around this. And we are committed to net zero by 2050 so that's a commitment that the UK has made. We are committed, therefore, to decarbonizing electricity, so power generation by by 2035 and seeing a real shift towards offshore wind and renewables. Also the question of energy security, and the extent to which we rely on imported gas in particular, has been a feature in the last couple of years. So I think there's some very significant drivers around why we need to decarbonise the UK generally. And as Andy said, the transport network is a very significant contributor to carbon emissions. So that's a very big part of the equation in terms of the enablers. I mean, it's a really interesting sort of combination of politics, investment, innovation consumer confidence, and we're absolutely on a pathway, but all of these things are moving at different paces. So I think we've seen a really interesting uptake in electric vehicles in the last few years. Some of the press reports are that that's just beginning to flatline a little bit now and and then. You know, consumer feedback is concerned about range, concerned about access to charging networks, whereas car manufacturers are under regulatory, political pressure to sell more electric vehicles. So there's a number of different forces at play there, which are the enablers, ultimately, and I think government has a very key role to play in creating the market and allowing that to move forward. I think in terms of blockers, I mean an interesting one. I mentioned, the need to build the infrastructure. So we need the electricity infrastructure, which is an area that I'm working in, particularly, which is a significant build of transmission networks across the UK. So we then run into planning issues and gaining sort of planning permission for building networks and that is once a particular area that we need to address as a country, around our tolerance of electricity transmission infrastructure to support the move towards decarbonised electricity generation.
Ayo Abbas 08:59
That's a good one, actually, isn't it? Yeah, there's a lot of people don't want that near them, do they? But they want the outcomes. So when we're looking to decarbonise transport. I mean, I guess it's chicken and egg. Which? Which comes first is it? Is it the transport network system and the people leading that that need to go first and really drive this? Or is it the energy network, or is it more of a working in collaboration and together to really push it? Because there's so many moving parts to this?
James Rowntree 10:39
Yeah, I think you that you're right. There's a number of moving parts. And I think it you can start or end with the with the consumer. So if somebody is going out to buy a new car, why would they choose an electric car over internal combustion engine car? So, so what are the what are the motivators the drivers that would encourage somebody to want to have an electric car in the first place, and that comes down to cost, reliability, environmental consciousness. There are lots of reasons why people will go down that route, but ultimately, if we increase the number of people who are driving electric cars, so if we're successful at creating a demand for electric vehicles, then we need to have the electricity infrastructure, the electricity supply, to support that demand and that, and that's where the balance comes in, because if there isn't enough electricity supply, there aren't enough charges on the road network, if people can't if people don't have a driveway and they're looking to charge vehicles from the street, then how do we enable the infrastructure to for them to do that so that their desire for an electric vehicle can be supported by the availability of the infrastructure. But to have the infrastructure, we need investment, and investors need to know that if they want to build something, they're going to get planning approval to do it, that they're going to get a return on their investment. And also within the mix, there is the car manufacturers who are creating the electric vehicles need to be able to get a return on their research and development in battery technology. So they need to know that there's a market there to supply the cars into the market in the first place. So it's really complicated, quite fascinating, and that's why I said, I think government do have a role in helping to create that market through both carrot and stick, you know, through the incentives that they can apply both to industry and to and to consumer.
Ayo Abbas 12:31
No just one, one other question, just slightly on that. So obviously, we got a new incoming government, are they really into kind of pushing this kind of greener energy and more sustainable energy. So hopefully they pushing quite a lot.
James Rowntree 12:43
Yes, yes. I mean, they've restated their commitment, and again, from my perspective around electricity transmission, they've absolutely restated their commitment for building the transmission networks that are needed across the UK. So yeah, I think we've seen so continuity of support from the last government to to this government.
Ayo Abbas 13:02
That's good to know. Really good to know. So moving on to innovation. So what role does innovation play in the kind of in the energy sector and and it and decarbonise, decarbonising transport, let me try and say that.
Andy Clarke 13:14
So yeah, it's energy. Energy sectors done an awful lot to decarbonise over the past 10 years, and was just about to see the last coal fired power station switch off, which is great, probably building off the last question, actually, from an innovation point, if you look at the whole transportation as a system, and so that chicken and egg, with terms of, does energy come first, or does the transport come first? It needs to be data led. We take a systems based approach, because the energy is going to be needed for transportation needs, and we need to prioritise the right projects, the right energy sources in the right areas. It's interesting because a lot there's been a lot of focus recently around EVs and the rollouts for cars, it's the consumer. But as chair of Hydrogen South West, we're looking at innovation projects. And the report that we've just done with WSP is around land transport, around LGVs, HGVs, and coaches and buses. Because if they're the workhorses, those vehicles you know are workhorses. And in the southwest alone, to give you sort of quantum there's over 700,000 like goods vehicles in the southwest, all are currently diesel powered, and you cannot just convert them to battery because the energy infrastructure is not there, as James mentioned, but it's also the topography of the landland doesn't. That doesn't and the way the energy is then used in vehicles doesn't allow for a battery powered vehicle, like, for like, I think the the analysis we have just done is you would need twice as many. Vehicles for some of the activities undertaken, for utilities, for companies, for delivery companies. So what does that do to the consumer? It doubles the rate that you pay for your energy because of the the management charges. So you've got to step back and look at it as a system. So we're looking at innovative projects. We're looking at hydrogen when we're trying to encourage, you know what? Let's, let's look at a range of different activities. What works well? Does fuel cell work? Does it hydrogen combustion work? Let's look at a range of different options, because we don't know which one is going to be the best it could be that there's there's not one silver bullet, and there's multiple different sources needed, but we have to give the right information to the consumer. Build confidence in the consumer, and if they want to change their vehicle, and fleets don't, it's not like a personal vehicle. You change it every six years. Fleets are constantly being updated year on year. And the current, current government mandate is that, like goods, vehicles need to be replaced by 2035, and there won't be a diesel equivalent. So there, you know, organizations are already looking at, well, if they've got a fleet of 3, 4, 5, 10,000 vehicles, they've got to start their replacement process soon, and what are they going to try and change to and what infrastructure then is in place in order to provide and maintain that energy supply?
Ayo Abbas 16:30
That's a huge amount of innovation in like, what, 11 years? Yeah, it's, it's not far. Is it
Andy Clarke 16:36
sooner than that? Because if you speak to take aviation and a hydrogen flight it to take based on take the A380 that was a 10 year lead in time for between production and actually the first flight, after test flights. So if you want, if Airbus are looking at the moment for the first hydrogen flight in 2030, it's 2025 it's next year when they've got to have the technology locked down. So it's and then start building around that technology, correct? So it's the time scales, and leading times are quite long. So all that's got to be factored into innovation and the design of the future transportation needs
Ayo Abbas 17:19
and in terms of kind of hydrogen and the impact that's going to have on transport infrastructure, I mean, what sort of things, how is that going to change, how, I guess, the heavy vehicles and how they actually work?
Andy Clarke 17:32
Well, the interested for the studies and work we're doing, and we're working with a number of hydrogen vehicle manufacturers, OEMs, and you can in terms of operation, it's, it's quite comparable to diesel in terms of refueling. So in terms of distance, the hydrogen vehicles can do sort of comparable distances, both in the winter and the summer. There's very little difference between the temperatures for hydrogen, which is great. The issue at the moment is there's no infrastructure in place to refuel the vehicles, which is a big problem. And you need to look at point to point. You can't do a return to base, because otherwise you then halve the distance you need. So we're looking at actually, what does the system look like to accommodate the future hydrogen needs. So to give consumers, whether they're industrial consumers or private consumers, the option to go, Well, does battery suit electric suit me, or does hydrogen electric suit me? And if it's hydrogen, is it fuel cell or internal combustion engine? So it, it's, there's, there's pros and cons for all technology, and it's just making sure all the data and the infrastructure is there in place to help the consumer make a choice.
Ayo Abbas 18:48
Is anything you wanted to add to that? James,
James Rowntree 18:52
yes, I mean, I think there's, there's huge innovation. I mean, and Andy has outlined a lot of that very eloquently. And I think on the neevi side as well, innovation in battery technology is really moving at pace, and I think we'll see some real changes there. And there might be a bit of a VHS versus Betamax conversation around hydrogen. Is it EV actually, it's probably both with heavy vehicles adopting hydrogen and fuel cells and so on, but I think to a slightly different take on innovation, perhaps so. So my world is about infrastructure, designing, building infrastructure, and we've mentioned it a couple of times, but to enable this energy to flow to where it's needed, we need to build a lot of infrastructure across the UK, and it's easy to overlook that national grid, they they have this strap line that they have to build five times as much transmission network in the next seven years than has been built in the last 30 years. That that is, that is massive, and the demand that places on the supply chain, and actually, if. Global supply chain, because there's a lot of equipment needed as part of that. But also we're not the only country doing it. You can go around the world, Australia, Canada, US into Europe. Many countries are on the same journey of electrification and needing to build their networks. So the demand on supply chains is huge. The demand on resources, on skills, is huge. So how can we deliver infrastructure? How can we deliver projects differently? And there's a lot of interest in, I don't know if you're familiar with the project 13 model, but basically, yeah, so institutions, civil engineers, the infrastructure client group have promoted the project 13 model, which is really about creating long term alliances between clients, asset owners and supply chains to work for a long period of time, but teams working together, all highly incentivized to deliver infrastructure and and we are seeing more and more interest in creating these long term integrated delivery vehicles to go and build the infrastructure. So I think we we shouldn't overlook the innovation that's needed in in our infrastructure sector to achieve the outcomes that that's required to achieve the decarbonisation.
Ayo Abbas 21:20
so in terms of developing the grid. So aside from, I guess, the project 13 model, whatever kind of innovations are coming out to really achieve that level, which is hugely fast,
James Rowntree 21:31
yeah, no, it look. It really is and and a lot of it is around process and how we work. I mean, there, I mean, of course there's technological innovation around substations and transformers and so on, but, but, but I won't go into that space, because that's not my area of expertise, but certainly around how we come together to build that pace. And that is, you know, how can we work with the planning system? How can we more how can we be more efficient working through planning, providing more certainty around what's going to be built at an earlier stage and and how can we give more confidence to supply chains, particularly global supply chains, about their need to invest in skills and equipment that might be needed in two, three years time. So there's a lot of innovation in sort of process, ways of working, commercial models that's going to bring everything together and take time out of infrastructure delivery. And as we know from other major programs across the UK, big infrastructure, it tends to move to the right and take longer. Well, we can't do that. You know, we want if we want to achieve 2035, if we want to achieve 2050, these are pretty tough deadlines that we have to meet. So how can we get the whole industry working together more efficiently to make sure that we achieve those? That's the That's what the industry is very focused on.
Ayo Abbas 22:53
Sounds really enjoy. So it's really collaborative as well. Yeah,
James Rowntree 22:58
hugely collaborative. And I think actually the power of collaboration is remarkable. So I think if you look at the construction industry historically quite fragmented around client, designer, contractor two, three, supply chains and so on. But actually, when you bring all of that together, when you go into commercial model that has everybody in the room or thinking about the same problem and how they solve the same problem, rather than thinking about their own piece of the jigsaw. It's hugely powerful and and the output that you can get from successful collaboration, you know, is makes significant savings on both time and time and cost. So that's, that's what the industry is, is striving for.
Ayo Abbas 23:39
Sounds quite exciting. So it's like looking at the process and then taking it apart. How can we make this a lot more streamlined? Yeah, and
James Rowntree 23:45
also, who's, who's, who's the best person to answer a problem. So you know, if we, if we are a designer working on an early stage design in the traditional world, the contractor wouldn't get involved until probably a year or two down the line. But actually, well, let's get them involved. This isn't rocket science, but let's get everyone involved very early on and start talking about not only what we're building, but how are we going to build it? How can we do it with a minimal impact on the environment, minimal impact on local communities, maximum benefit from a time and cost point of view. And those are really powerful discussions when you get all the right people in the room properly focused on
Ayo Abbas 24:23
One more question, just in terms of, like, scale, because obviously, that's a huge program to deliver in a really short period. Is there a lot of kind of standardization that you're going to find as you're because it's such a big program?
James Rowntree 24:32
Yeah, there is. And that's, you know, it's a great question, because I think we've seen, if you look in the building sector, in particular, standardisation. So, you know the buzz phrase is modern methods of construction or design for manufacture and assembly, and basically building manufacturing components off site in a standardized way against the kitter parts, and then moving them on site for just really site becomes an assembly platform. Rather than a construction platform in the traditional sense. So, yeah, so there's a, there's a, there's a big piece of work around actually, how can we break down all of the components that go into building electricity network and standardise as much of that so you you end up with sort of smaller number of repeatable solutions, and the more of that that you can do remotely in a in a factory environment, and then assemble on site, then the, obviously the time and cost savings, but also minimising local impacts as well during construction. So yeah, big opportunity for for that,
Ayo Abbas 25:30
fantastic. So in terms of, I know, before we talked about having when you're looking at kind of the energy and how it's kind of distributed and transmitted, to look at it on a kind of strategic national level, on a regional level and local how, I guess, what's being done to make sure that we get energy to the parts that it's needed the most, and the right types of energy as well, I guess. And we go for Andy for that one,
Andy Clarke 25:52
yeah, it's interesting. Actually, I was just thinking about what James was just saying around energy and standardisation. There is a lot of infrastructure needed, whether that be electrical transmission, or whether that be through other fuels, hydrogen, etc, or a sustainable aviation fuel. I think we also need to think about, how do we there's going to be a change in the way that we generate electricity as well. I think there's going to be a big more, far more emphasis on that local generation. So build on your last question on innovation, I think there's going to be a lot more generation done locally, and we're seeing that already with people's homes, of people now got solar panels and batteries and doing a lot more self generation. I think there's going to be a with the way we see energy. It's not going to be a seven or eight big nuclear or coal power station, natural gas power stations, and then a big grid network. It's it's going to be both. It's going to be a grid network, which James is a far more an expert than myself, but you're going to get lot more local generation, so things like hydrogen that's best generated on site and consumed locally, rather than transported, just because of the losses you get of energy, so in terms of efficiencies, but it that's where the focus needs to be. Same with, how do we when we generate electricity? Where are we generating electricity from? I mean, there's big the big opportunity at the moment in the Celtic Sea, lots of floating offshore wind turbines can generate a vast amount of energy. That's great. How do we then get the energy from the Celtic Sea to the cities and the places where people then consume that electricity? So that's that's the challenge at the moment, and that's what we've got to do. There's planning constraints, and if we've got to do it in five years, how do we? How do we then people don't really want large pylons suddenly going through the middle of the bracken beacons. So how do we? How do we then look at what innovative technologies there are to bring electricity to where it's needed. Big challenge.
Ayo Abbas 28:03
It's a very busy area. Didn't quite realise how massive it is. No, that's really, really good. So in terms of EV, so have been electric vehicles when you're looking for charging points, it's always been a difficult one, and it's well across the UK. I mean, how is that being managed, especially, I guess, for, not just for electric vehicles, but also for larger, heavy vehicles.
Andy Clarke 28:27
Well,
Andy Clarke 28:27
I think for the priority at the moment's been on on EVs has been on the cars. And I think that's that's right, because the cars of consumers, let's be honest, 90% of the time a car spent on a driver in a garage, so it was stationary, so that. And most people do smaller, shorter journeys. There are longer journeys needed for cars, but then people plan those, and there tends to be a bit more thought go into that. And actually I'll stop twice or three times and charge, I think in terms of those heavier vehicles, heavy goods vehicles, the coaches. I think EVs are way behind on where they need to be. I know battery technology is improving, but I think they get again, it's looking at alternative fuels for those, those long distance and fleet operators. And
James Rowntree 29:17
I think if I, if I maybe just just follow on that, on the from the on the EV point. I think, I think access to charging points is a it's a key consideration for anybody who is buying an EV, but also who's then on the journey. And as I mentioned, if someone has a driveway and they can plug their car into a home charging point, then that's fine. But if you know there's a large proportion of the population have on street parking. You're actually not allowed to run cables across pavements. So what's the So, what's the solution there? And I think that this is where we get into the role of local authorities working with the energy companies to and with investors to. Build the network that's needed to support wide scale charging points. And you know, I know that local authorities are under an obligation to work with the local electricity operators to define what they believe that the charging network requirements are in their locality. There is a time taken so so when, particularly for the large, large charging networks, they need to connect into the grid. So some of them might require a very significant connection, and it's been quite well so briefed in the in the press that some of the wait times for connections onto the grid network can be measured in years and and if you're an investor who wants to invest in something like that, are you going to wait years to do in the UK, or do you take your money to somewhere else? So I think there's a, there's quite a challenge there in terms of how we unlock access to grid connections, which brings in planning and, you know, and local community needs and so on. So I think there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a big piece there. We have, actually, so on the first of October, which is not a long way, is it, the the the National Energy System Operator, comes into effect, so that that's a body that has been, I was going to say, created, because, actually, it's not quite created, because it was the electricity systems operator was a entity that sat within national grid, but that's moved into public ownership now under the Energy Act of last year, and the national energy system operator will have a role to advise on the UK energy system from a strategic perspective. So as that finds its feet, I would expect that to become quite a an interesting focal point for what do we need, and and then how we're going to, how we're going to get it, and then just making, probably just bringing together the supply and demand side much more
Ayo Abbas 32:03
integrated, which, which makes a lot more sense, doesn't it? I guess the ban on diesel and petrol cars is going to be being sold in the UK will be by 2020, 2035, which isn't far. So by then, what's your vision for integrated transport looking like? Then, Andy, you can go,
Andy Clarke 32:18
I'm always a glass half full guys. So I think my view is this is a great opportunity for the UK, actually, because we're already starting to see driver ownership go down and decrease. So with the change to the ban on diesel and petrol cars being sold, people may now consider not owning a car. And what is the alternative? So if there is a fully integrated public transport alternative for for people to select then, then they may, there's a lot of people may choose not to purchase a car. And then if they need a car, there's, there's, you know, various different car hire sort of firms where you can hire a car per hour or per day. And I think that we've got to make public transport the attractive proposition. And I think we've, if we we can have a fully integrated transportation network. I think it's a great opportunity now, with the ban coming in, that people will will decide to potentially switch to the public transport, and we've got to seize that opportunity.
Ayo Abbas 32:18
Absolutely. You know what that really resonates with the last episode I did with Vernon Everitt, who was talking about Transport for Greater Manchester, and he was, he talked about how they want to create a network that people want to use. I think, I think it's big shift. It's like people really want to be on it. And I think that's that's that's,
33:34
this could be the driver this ban on petrol and cars could be the driver for people to make that switch.
Ayo Abbas 33:49
And James, what's your vision for 2035
James Rowntree 33:51
very, very similar. Look, we're on a pathway, aren't we, towards 2035 towards 2050 the 2035 date it was, it was 2030 so it's actually slipped back five years. And I know, I know the current government have asked the question around, well, actually, could we bring it forward again? Could we go faster? So we're absolutely on a journey. I think there are some complexities along the way, as we've discussed, but there is huge investment going into innovation, into building the infrastructure networks, into really moving things forward at pace. So I think the momentum is there. I think, personally, I think the dates might move around a little bit, but we will absolutely get to a point. Actually, funny, as I was thinking the other day, I was I was driving behind two Tesla cars, and there was a Tesla car behind me. Now, five years ago, if you saw a Tesla you were also electric car. And it would have been something that seems quite odd, but now they're really quite ubiquitous. I mean, there's a there's a lot of electric vehicles on the road, that pace will continue. And I do think as we get to the mid 2030s and. Electric cars will absolutely be the, you know, the norm, and we'll be moving very well towards that 2050, Net Zero date.
Ayo Abbas 35:14
Thanks so much for listening, and don't forget, Interchange isn't just a podcast, it's also a two day conference that will be taking place at Manchester Central on the 4/5 March 2025 The conference will bring together the key public and private sector infrastructure operators and their value chain to talk about new ideas to challenge the status quo and build strong relationships so we can have a shared approach to make integrated transport app, head to www.interchange-uk.com, to find out more, you.
