Episode 4 – Integrated transport begins from a point of understanding, Andy Clarke, Costain
Epsiode intro
Welcome to The Interchange Podcast where our guest is Andy Clarke, Director for Integrated Transport at Costain.
In this episode we discussed:
that integrated transport systems must start from a place of understanding our clients’ biggest issues
how deeper collaboration is needed across the sector and more openness to change
the key role the private sector can play in the cross-sector fertilisation of knowledge sharing and ideas
why more modes should use the model developed by the aviation sector to deliver integrated transport systems
how the use of innovative technology such as hydrogen and batteries will play a crucial role in decarbonisation. But we must be mindful that there is no one silver bullet and we will need to adopt multiple approaches.
being mindful about introducing technology just for technology’s sake
This podcast is produced in association with Arcadis and hosted by independent broadcaster, Ayo Abbas and interviews leading changemakers and thinkers about how integrated transport infrastructure is the solution to achieving a more effective and decarbonised transport network.
Andy Clarke
Andy Clarke is the Director for Integrated Transport at Costain. He is passionate about delivering decarbonised, seamless end-to-end journeys. At Costain, Andy is responsible for creating multi-modal transport solutions which leverage cross-sector collaboration, new approaches and digital technologies to enable healthier, happier and better-connected communities. He is committed to accelerating the green transport revolution, not least through the development of hydrogen fuel.
“There are lots of like-minded people who really want to change. It’s about understanding why the system is set up that way and safety has got to be paramount on any transportation system.”
Resources and Links
About Interchange UK
The Interchange Podcast series is part of Interchange, which centres around a two-day major event about rethinking transport infrastructure taking place in Manchester on 27/28 February 2024. If you’d like to attend you can book your place here.
Transcript
SPEAKERS
Ayo Abbas, Andy Clarke
Ayo Abbas 00:03
Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Interchange Podcast, produced in association with Arcadis and hosted by me Ayo Abbas. Today, my guest is Andy Clarke, who is the director for Integrated Transport at Costain. He is responsible for creating multimodal transport solutions through cross sector collaboration so that we form better connected communities. Each episode of this podcast looks at how we can make integrated transport delivery happen. In this interview with Andy, he believes that our starting point has to be from a place of understanding what our client's biggest concerns are. It was a fascinating discussion that I hope you enjoy listening to as much as I did. Enjoy. Hi, Andy, thanks so much for coming onto the show. Can you introduce yourself and your role at Costain?
Andy Clarke 00:56
Oh, Hi, I'm Andy Clarke, I'm the Director for Integrated Transport.
Ayo Abbas 01:00
And what does that entail?
Andy Clarke 01:03
So I cover all of aviation and local and devolved authorities, combined authorities, and looking at how we actually integrate our transportation networks to improve the customer experience and the customer journey.
Ayo Abbas 01:21
So in your role and to you personally, what does the integrated transport infrastructure mean to you? And why do you think it's important?
Andy Clarke 01:28
Okay, for me, I believe passionately that if we adopt holistic systems approach to the development of an integrated, connected, multimodal network, we can drive a positive change for society. And that's essential for improving people's lives. I mean, why does integrated transport matter to Costain? Well, infrastructure is experiencing unprecedented change, especially since the pandemic, we've got a growth in population, with climate change, and economic and environmental resilience, political pressures, are all putting immense strain on infrastructure and stresses on the way we've used the operating model of infrastructure. So we can't simply just carry on doing what we've always done. We've got to we've got to look at things differently.
Ayo Abbas 02:25
And are you finding that everybody's been more open to thinking differently post kind of pandemic and where we are now?
Andy Clarke 02:31
I do. And I think, you know, the interchange conference is fantastic. And actually bringing people together to start the conversation, I think about multimodal transport, and, and let's move away from that siloed. I'm looking at this this mode to actually, what power does everything connect? Let's look at the passenger experience from A to B, not just the, the leg in between, but actually where does their journey start? Where do they, where do they finish? And? And how do we get people out of cars, which do go from A to B from where we want to go? And to actually look at how does we get to a public transportation network that that everyone can use?
Ayo Abbas 03:11
So what enablers and blockers do you see to kind of making this kind of integrated transport network actually happen?
Andy Clarke 03:17
They focus on the positive when just need deeper collaboration across sector. And I think that's where things like Interchange work really well. And we've got to have that mindset of willingness to embrace change. And we got to look at adopting new technologies. And when I say new technologies, it's not all technology, for technology's sake. But actually what technologies out there to use, and in this trial, new things, this was just do the same what we've always done. And if things don't work, we stop. And we we learn quickly, fail fast as some people call it and move on to the next thing, but we've got to challenge the norms of the way we think around our infrastructure.
Ayo Abbas 03:59
And are people open to being challenged in this sector, because I know it's traditionally it's quite traditional, really, isn't it?
Andy Clarke 04:07
There are lots of like-minded people who really want to change. I think for me, it's understanding why is the system set up and safety has got to be paramount on any transportation system. So there's been decades of standards and the way methodologies put in place to protect the travelling public and passenger and to make sure that we have a safe reliable transportation network and that's critical that we don't undo all that but we're just looking at okay, so let's look at them. How do we come together to take a systems approach to the way we design the way we plan the way we the way we model our transportation networks to to help you know, join the dots between the different the different infrastructure modes But
Ayo Abbas 05:00
I love where you're coming from, from starting from the safety perspective. And that's really important. I've not I've not thought of it that way. But that's actually a nice way to start in terms of the systemic approach as well.
Andy Clarke 05:09
For me, it's around safety is paramount for any transportation, because that gives confidence, confidence in, in the mode. And if you look at things like, you know, I've worked across multi different modes & disciplines. Aviation is probably the most, you know, from an in-flight point of view, they learn, they pick themselves up, and they cross, fertilise that knowledge across all the competing airlines and airports to help improve safety because it's, it's paramount to aviation. And once you under we understand that it that helps to identify some of the cultures within these transportation modes. And that's the starting point then for actually any change programme, understanding, Exactly.
Ayo Abbas 05:57
Start there start from where they can start from their biggest worry, right
Andy Clarke 06:01
Correct
Ayo Abbas 06:01
Their biggest concern, and then people are more open once you know, we've addressed that. We can still try it in this way. That's a really nice way to start. It's really good. And in terms of the private sector, what are firms such as Costain, and the private sector in general looking to do and what things are they doing and investing in to take this integrated transport model forward?
Andy Clarke 06:22
Well, there's other private sectors been working on a lot of the transportation networks. And I think the role we can play a lot better actually, around that cross sector, fertilisation of knowledge, fertilisation of ideas, it still amazes me that we have a lot of people who only work in rail only work in highways or only work in aviation or light rail. And actually is that cross fertilisation of people that actually will help us to move and that's where the private sector who worked with multiple different clients can really help that. And I think the way, the way that sometimes we're structured, does has a constraint, even if it's a invisible constraint around that, that collaboration, and we need to unlock that in order to progress. But yeah, and if you look at customers, so our customers tend to focus on specific modes, and we need to go, I'm gonna go take the train, I'm gonna make a choice, I'm gonna take the train, I'm gonna fly and drive etc. And we've got to help look at that, and help clients understand what drives an individual to make that choice. And I think going forward, there's going to be more choice of different modes. And we have to enable that, is it the cost? Is it the time? Or is it the experience that people desire most when choosing which mode of transport they want to take?
Ayo Abbas 07:56
And that will change as well when it depending on circumstances, and stuff? So, yeah,
Andy Clarke 08:01
I have a kid. And I know that if, certain modes are more practical than than other modes,
Ayo Abbas 08:08
that's for sure. And what role is this kind of digital technology play in creating integrated transport and systems.
Andy Clarke 08:19
Digital technology, I mean, that's essential for where we go. And if you look at the way phones and the people use phones and apps, it's essential, but we have to be clear on why we're using the technology. I mean, digital in itself isn't the end, we shouldn't use it for the sake of using it, we should. But however, if we use it in the right way, and we can enhance our decision making, having better reliable data, we can then make better decisions. That's could be, we've come a long way with things like digital twins and 3d digital twins. And that will help us then make decisions on what infrastructure is needed. What are the modelling of people characteristics? What is it the user needs? In terms of the maintainer, the the operator of the asset? How do they undertake their tasks? How can we make it more efficient for them? And it's a massive opportunity using digital to help, you know, do things better, keep the asset open longer. Minimum minimise the impact on local communities. And so that's that's key for us. And if you look at them the way things like situation awareness cameras, for instance, doorbells, now have cameras, our cameras everywhere, but how do we then use cameras and that and that digital information to improve how people used to transport so we only have trains running when actually there's people who need them. When do we have you know, pods or autonomous cars etc turn up when people need them. So It's a great opportunity to help drive efficiencies, having technology but not for technology's sake. People are still got to be at the heart of any transportation system.
Ayo Abbas 10:12
Fantastic. And also, you've got new technology, new kinds of things like hydrogen coming in for decarbonisation, and those kinds of big issues and big new ways of doing things. I mean, how do you feel that's gonna play a role in future transport delivery.
Andy Clarke 10:30
For me, hydrogen is really important, it's a really important part to play in it to help the UK reaches its net zero ambitions. But we must bear in mind that it's not the silver bullet. Likewise, batteries, not the silver bullet, you know, we, it's going to be a blend, we're going to start stop, you know that that mindset of a diesel dwarf and replace it with something else is actually, let's look differently, let's look at energy as as a source of how do we best use it. So if you like cities, batteries are fantastic in a rural or long distance, you know, that's where the likes of hydrogen come in. We just need to really change that mindset of how we travel. And it's now all about energy. And we must think about where does the energy come from. So cities, batteries are fantastic in the city location, but lots of opportunities to charge it, lots of grid network and the rural community, especially in the southwest, the the opportunity to roll out large grids for people to charge. That's not practical on the cost to use, the ratio is just not viable economic for people. So actually, a hydrogen based system will be would be more better in the southwest. So for instance, if you look at light goods, vehicles, so the heartbeat of the Ford Transit, for instance, economy, where you have drivers going out, you know, three and a half tonne vehicles pulling pulling a trailer, or a compressor or something, they are currently diesel, they go they go out, they'll do a few 100 miles, but actually, when they get to their destination, they will stop they'll stop and do whatever repair they have to do on the asset. But their engines will keep running because they power their electric power tools. And the lighting needed to actually undertake the task. So the the engines are constantly running in those vehicles. So to have a battery powered vehicle, there's just not the energy demand on those. So and if you look at somewhere like the southwest, then you know 40% of LGVs, but that battery powered LGV just will not cope and and if we say well, okay, we'll have more LGVs, we'll change the operating model, we'll have more LGVs. And we'll put more charging points in and they'll stop every couple of hours to charge. Well, the only person is going to pay for that. And the extra cost because of the operating models change is the consumer. So we just have to look at the round that you're not replacing like for like it's or what is the opportunity in the new world or in a decarbonised world? What what's the opportunity there for vehicles to be? What fuel sources are the using?
Ayo Abbas 13:30
And that will be different depending on where you're located and things like that. Right? I see how I look at it in that kind of regional context as well to kind of give it the right systemic approach, I guess, right?
Andy Clarke 13:39
Correct. So for a car, a battery for a car seems practical. Yeah. Most of the time a car sits on people's driveways or garages, whereas or car parks where it's like, you know, like goods vehicles, heavy goods vehicles are on the road all the time driving it and it's all about how do you maximise the drivers time, on the tacco for, to stop to charge is not actually adding value to the operation. So actually a hydrogen filling fueled vehicle where it might have to stop for five minutes to fill up with hydrogen or gaseous type fuel would be more prudent.
Ayo Abbas 14:20
And why, because you're also involved in aviation or you have a background in aviation, what kind of trends are you seeing in the aviation sector in terms of I guess, addressing the integration challenge and getting close to the other modes?
Andy Clarke 14:33
Well good question airports I see. Now, they'rethe role model really, I mean, they have always been that intermodal transportation networks, especially the hub airports, because they have, you know, trains, they have trams or they have like, sometimes they have transits that go between terminals. They have car parks as well. So they've always been buses, coaches so they've always been a sort of hub for an integrated modal transport. And they, because of the number of people work there, the number of people to travel through those airports, they're almost cities within themselves
Ayo Abbas 15:12
Yeah, you go to Heathrow, it certainly is,
Andy Clarke 15:15
Heathrow, Manchester, Gatwick are really important for that local economy and with so many people who work there and I think, and that in itself then attracts businesses to base themselves near airports for the connectivity. So you know, which then provides local jobs. So it's a, it's a great approach and a blueprint for other cities to actually, you know, that intermodal customer experience, great social value, bring, you know, recruit local jobs is brilliant. But while aviation is setting the pace on integrated transport, you know, there is the onus on the sector to decarbonize and, and that's where actually the aviation sector can look elsewhere. So, you know, let's take some of the industrial or say the, so the dirty sectors that might people may refer to the oil and gas industry, they have got a wealth of process engineering, etc, which then could be channelled into how to do carbon capture, hydrogen generation, etc, etc. You've got the likes of, I mean, Europe's largest integrated transportation, client Transport for London. And, you know, they have been operating Hydrogen buses for 20 years. And airports, I see lots of coaches and buses around airports. So there's a massive opportunity to share some knowledge and some, some best practice. So I think going forward, you've got sustainable aviation fuels, there's gonna be an alternative mix there. And as they gather pace, so again, great, great opportunities for that.
Ayo Abbas 16:55
Quick question, how do you how do the nodes kind of how do they transfer knowledge across them? Do you know what I mean? So how would you know aviation medical TfL? How's that? Is there a mechanism for that so far? Or is it more of a kind of?
Andy Clarke 17:07
It's all through people, everything's through people? How do you connect people? And I think we're getting better as a nation of cross pollination? I think COVID has helped drive a lot of that, actually. But I act. It's the onus is on all of us to go out there a seek where have we done this before?
Ayo Abbas 17:27
Just ask Yeah,
Andy Clarke 17:28
my biggest frustration is that you talk to one client, and they've got a problem, not an issue. And you think, Okay, well, I'm sure we can find it, find that and we go back into the business and other other parts of the business and other clients have had the same problem, I've actually got a solution. Now the solution may not 100% transfer to clients, my clients needs. But you know, we're now maybe 50 or 40, or 50, or 60%. On that journey, and we're not starting with a blank sheet of paper, it frustrates me that quite often our first port of call is a blank sheet of paper, another workshop, let's see what we can think of where it's actually it should always be where has anyone done this before?
Ayo Abbas 18:11
Yeah. And actually go out and do that risk research before you come together? Because that actually informs your decision, your your conversation or doesn't know of course, yeah, no,
Andy Clarke 18:20
go and get their experience to say actually what works for them, what didn't work for them, and then that, again, get the data that can help make a better decision. Brilliant. Okay, so final questions. So in an ideal, in your ideal world, what would you see integrated transport infrastructure looking like by 2035, which isn't that far anymore? There's so much potential, especially with decarbonisation. If you look at the road network, that could be completely different look at aviation, we could have electric flight, we could have hydrogen aircraft, we could have electric aircraft with all international flights, sustainable aviation fuel, who knows, but for me, it's about making our integrated transport is about making our towns and cities work fully connected, decarbonised, or the fully integrated transportation system. And I do admire things like what the Transport for Greater Manchester are trying to do and integrate their transportation network and under the B network, I think, you know, the more of that we see across multiple cities across the UK and larger towns, that will just help us, make better, smarter decisions. So I'd love to see car ownership actually decline over the next sort of 10-15 years because that integrated public network is available and it might, that's the best use of it. Does that mean that car industry is going to disappear? No, it doesn't, it just evolves into something a little bit different and shared ownership, etc. Comes back to my earlier point is, as if we have a integrated, connected, better connectedtransportation system, the fundamental is going to be safe. And I want to make sure that we have a transportation network that's safe for everyone, not just a few, safe for everyone. Doesn't matter what time you travel. If people are going I've got to feel safe. And I just think if we plan our transportation network better, it's not just about getting you from A to B, but it's also about keeping you moving and building opportunities as we go, keeping you active throughout the day. People can work as they travel, suddenly change, change the way we operate. And, ultimately, you know, integrate transports about proven improving people's lives and driving a positive change, which will benefit society.
Ayo Abbas 20:55
A great way to end. Thank you so much for coming onto the show, Andy. Oh, thank you. Thanks for listening to interchange. And remember, it's not just a podcast interchange is much more. It's also a two day major exhibition and conference taking place on February the 27th and 28th in Manchester Central, head to www.interchange-uk.com to find out more.
