Episode 3 – Integrating transport: focus on the 'why' and not the 'what', Kerry Bangle, WSP
Epsiode intro
The latest episode of The Interchange podcast features Kerry Bangle, Major Projects Director, Communities and Mobility, WSP. Produced in association with Arcadis and hosted by independent broadcaster, Ayo Abbas, this episode looks at how we can deliver integrated transport from a purpose, people and outcome-led perspectives.
Our discussions include:
Putting people, not just designing and delivering infrastructure, at the heart of transport projects.
Understanding the importance of winning the hearts and minds of communities - opposition can make or break projects.
A need to breaking out of short political cycles to enable long-term integrated transport planning.
Why we must look to adopt a more inclusive planning regime focused on meeting diverse user needs.
How we must put more of a focus on upskilling our current workforce and attracting and developing the next generation of transport talent.
“If we think more about integrated transport and focus on the who not just the what, then we will get better outcomes by putting people at the heart everything that we do.”
– Kerry Bangle
The Interchange podcast interviews leading changemakers and thinkers about how integrated transport infrastructure is the solution to achieving a more effective and decarbonised transport network.
Kerry Bangle
Kerry Bangle is WSP’s Major Projects Director, Communities and Mobility with 25 years’ experience in a wide variety of transport, advisory and major project roles in the UK and Australia. Kerry is particularly passionate about bringing forward the next generation of professionals, particularly women, to work in this dynamic and critical industry.
Resources and Links
About Interchange UK
Interchange is much more than a podcast. It's also a major two-day annual conference and exhibition taking place in on February 27 and 28th in Manchester Central. Head to www.interchange-uk.com to find out more.
Transcript
SPEAKERS
Ayo Abbas, Kerry Bangle
Kerry Bangle 00:00
If we think more about integrated transport on the why not just the what, then I think you know, we're gonna get better outcomes and putting people at the heart of of everything that we do, not just things, but people.
Ayo Abbas 00:14
Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of the interchange podcast, which is produced in association with Arcadis and hosted by me, Ayo Abbas. This show looks at how we can make integrated transport infrastructure happen. And today, our guest is Kerry Bangle from engineering and consultancy firm, WSP. In our wide ranging discussion, we really get to grips with purpose and communities, and the role that they play in delivering successful integrated transport infrastructure. We also talk about the need for longer term political cycles, and how upskilling the next generation of talent is really, really important for the transport sector. Anyway, now let's get on with listening. Enjoy. Hi, Kerry, thanks so much for coming onto the show. Can you introduce yourself and your role at WSP?
Kerry Bangle 01:11
Sure. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. Yeah. So I work for WSP. We're a global consultancy firm advising on all things environmental, energy, and engineering. And there are about 9000 of us in the UK. So that's rather a lot of us. And I'm really excited because I've just started a new job as major projects director, oh, in our new Yeah, I know, it's exciting in our newly created communities and mobility division, so it can talk about that in a bit. But which I mean, what does that mean? It sounds bit bland. But yeah, basically, I get to help our clients with some of their biggest challenges delivering their biggest transport projects, that might mean helping them to think about why they need them, what do they need them? Why securing the funding for them, gaining the planning consent, designing them project managing them, right the way through delivery and into service and operation? So I'd say it's, you know, it's a really exciting job. And definitely no two days are the same as a lot of juggling. So anyone listening out there who's thinking about a career in transport, I can highly recommend it.
Ayo Abbas 02:10
The juggle is real, isn't it it's always changing. And so it's quite a political area and arena, isn't it? It's one of those divisive things, as we know. So what does integrated transport infrastructure mean to you? And why do you think it's important to us?
Kerry Bangle 02:10
And I think it's, it's probably all too easy to jump into thinking, about infrastructure as sort of routes and timetables and physical infrastructure, and networks and all of that sort of, but what we really need to think about is, I think the purpose of it. So what does integrated transport mean, and the infrastructure only exists because we're connecting people to opportunities. You know, it's not just the concrete and the steel, there's the, you know, the digital connectivity, and those access to sort of services and helping communities access, you know, opportunities. And that's why we're sort of saying that this division, that we've set up the communities and mobility division, it's really important that we're trying to put the people back at the heart of what we're talking about here, you know, it's not just steel, concrete, pylons, you know, back at the top that sort of thing. So I think it's more than just the infrastructure we've got. And the integrated part of it is that, there's more emphasis on, y the need for us to work together. And I know, some of the previous podcasts also touched on that, that how we integrate the transport. You know, it's the government's private sector public, and we're gonna we're gonna come on to talk about that, hopefully, in a bit. And that's why WSP, is reorienting its business, to reflect to reflect that complexity. So I think, if we think more about integrated transport on the why not just the what, yeah, then I think we're gonna get better outcomes and putting people at the heart of, of everything that we do, not just things, but people, I guess, does that mean, you feel that we have slightly lost? So like, we lost that purpose, somewhere along the way, and more kind of focused on the delivering the projects and things rather than the people at the heart of it and your purpose? Yeah, no, I think I think you're right. And I think it's, yeah, I think it's a fair challenge. And I think we absolutely need to remember why we're doing this, I think for us, as engineers and technical professionals, it's quite easy for us to get caught up in the, you know, the guidance and the frameworks and the policy and all of that behind what it is we're doing, you know, and we can be honest, you know, sometimes you can hide away in an ivory tower and think, Gosh, aren't we doing a fantastic job of all of our documents? But actually, we've, you knoas soon as we sort of go out to talk to the public about it, they're like, well, that's not what I want. I didn't ask for that, you know, and so I think that that, that the way that we plan things if we're not doing it with the end user in mind Mind and the outcome, not the output. There's a very subtle but important difference there. You know, what's the outcome we're trying to achieve? We're going to miss the point and we're going to deliver infrastructure that you know what, as professionals, we think, Gosh, isn't this absolutely marvellous, but doesn't do the job that the people, you know, the citizens who in most cases are the ones that are paying for it? Through their tax bills? Are you know that they're the ones that we should be doing it for? Not because we want to build a shiny piece of infrastructure that makes us all feel frightfully clever and, you know, we win an award for which, you know, obviously, that's quite nice. So kind of harmonised. Both of those things. There's what we need to be doing.
Ayo Abbas 05:36
Yeah. No, that's such a great point, isn't it? Yeah, you'd be like, I'm looking at like, great, shiny details, like, does it work for the people? Which is, which is actually the most important thing. So what kind of enablers and blockers do you see to making kind of integrated transport infrastructure happen?
Kerry Bangle 05:57
Well, I don't want to start with a negative, but I think, you know, let's get let's get the blockers out of the way that then go positive, okay. There's a number of blockers, and there will be a number of positives, I promise. But the I think the blockers as we many of us are kind of in the thick of it, you know, it's the political cycle is a major blocker, you know, things on a four or five year cycle transport infrastructure does not operate in that timeframe, you know, what we're trying to do is longer than that, so over political cycles, trying to maintain support for things, you know, and I don't want to mention it and high speed rail project, but holding that coalition over a period of time, you know, when, when there are wider headwinds around, you know, there's pressures on the economy. fashions change, you know, if you think about where we've been in, in infrastructure and planning, you know, it was all about freedom for the car, then it was about, you know, active travel, we've gone from things must be driving economic development, to my goodness, what's happening to the climate, you know, the environment. So we're really, you know, there's lots of different things not become fashionable, but become very important
Ayo Abbas 07:05
slightly, though, doesn't it? Yeah.
Kerry Bangle 07:07
Yeah, what are the boxes we need to tick or the narrative that we need to sort of cover off? So I think trying to maintain a transport project through that the buffeted sort of winds of change is is very hard, because, you know, what, what, excuse me? What was a good idea in 1997, when something was planned to 2010 when it's in construction? You know, it's difficult. So I think long longer term planning, like we've got is hard in that in that sort of political cycle. The other thing, I think the blocker is that and potentially enabler, so it's a bit of both for in both camps, areas, that transport is very emotive. You know, it's very, it's very controversial in places it can be very, if you think about the issues around low traffic neighbourhoods or, you know, the plan for drivers, the whole anti car rhetoric, the Ulez, the Ultra Low Emission zone expansion in London, you know, you think about the media attention that got so being so much in the public eye, and then the public consciousness, have you ever tried changing parking provision in a town centre, you'll know how, how difficult some of this stuff is?
Ayo Abbas 08:14
When was the last time you went to town? 10 years ago, but I might next week.
Kerry Bangle 08:20
Yeah, exactly. I don't, I don't even have a car, but I want to be able to park for free, you know, there's. So that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons I got into the industry into the profession. Because you can you can, if you're trying to do something, you can easily set out 100 reasons to do something. But it's quite easy to come up with 100 reasons not to do that very same thing, because it's so emotive. And so at the core of what we do and how we live our lives. So I think that's a potential blocker and enabler. You know, if you tap into the right thing, it's an enabler, but it can equally be a blocker. And I also think that we can't you know a blocker, you can't look at transport in isolation, you know, is it as we're all taught in our university courses, transport is a derived demand, okay, transport only exists to react to other things, you know, we only do it for the sake we don't do transport for the sake of it, you know, long gone are the days where you'd go for a sort of a drive on a Sunday, you know, for just for the sake of being out. We don't do that. We go on a journey. We don't just go on, let's have a little wonder. So I think in transport, what's interesting is we've we're often trying to fix the problems that have been created by other policy areas. So what do I mean by that? Like, so I suppose housing that's been built on the edges of towns, that's a that's a planning policy, land use decision. But then they're saying, Oh, you have to build that with three parking spaces for each, for each house. So you're already baking in car dependency. Those people who live at the out of town so they're going to come in buy a new car and they want more parking, they create congestion, they create pollution, and there's absolutely no point in even trying to put in a bus route to that to development, because no-one is going to use it, because they're already using their cars, so, you know, what we're trying, what we're finding is that those blockers to enabling integrated transport are sometimes caused by other policy decisions, which, you know, makes it pretty challenging. Yeah. And, we started talking also about the school run, you know, this morning, before we started the chat here, if you look at the decision that was made, to allow children to parents can pick, carers can pick where their child goes to school within reason, whereas in the olden days, your kid went to the school around the corner or down the road, there was no choice about it. But that meant, that means now the school run, could be a lot, it is a lot longer, it's a lot more problematic. We all know how much more pleasant it is to drive during the school holidays than it is, you know, in term time. So, transport is fixing those problems that have been created through other, you know, well meaning policy decision. So that's quite an interesting one. And I think the other one that I draw on is the, in delivering transport is the complexity of the bidding and money for funding. Yeah. So whilst we've seen, you know, there's arguably more money flowing down out of central government for for transport, you know, we're seeing that through various big funds that levelling up fund transforming cities. City Regional Sustainable Transport Settlement, that's a snappy one, isn't it CRST. So there's more money coming. But But there's more effort in having to bid for the money.
Ayo Abbas 11:38
They are big bids, aren't they? Even when you're on the frameworks, you still have to bid a lot, don't you? It's like those frameworks are big to get on. And then it's still always work.
Kerry Bangle 11:49
Yeah. So and for the the money that the local authorities can bid for in these big funds that largely come through from either sort of, you know, from central government, they have time scales attached to them, how quickly you could spend them, because they have time horizons. So in some cases, or authorities of bidding, and winning, you know, and I, shameless plug for WSP, that we do support clients in that. But those authorities then have to scale up, you know, rapidly to deliver big projects in real time. Yeah. So, you know, that's a that's a challenge. So whilst there's an enabler of money, you know, are we are we helping those authorities set themselves up to deliver effectively, so that's, that's a bit of a challenge. So I will get to the positive now Ayo, so I think I think there's, there's a lot to be, you know, positive about, so micro mobility. So this is, you know, the scooters and all of these sort of slightly more innovative ways of, of moving around. And I think, you know, they're not without problems and government events, about how they're going to legislate for them. And you speak to a lot of people, and they think that they're the most awful thing in the world. But if you think about the freedom that they give, you know, particularly younger people who don't have access to a car, you know, have been able to jump on a scooter, you know, will revolutionise how they get around. So I think, you know, the microbrew ability offers opportunities. The big one is obviously what Jocasta talked about in the last podcast was, you know, about the fast opportunities offered by you know, data enabled society, and how we can optimise how we travel and use infrastructure. With this, this data. So rich, you know,
Ayo Abbas 13:32
Think we are only in the infancy of that, aren't we, it's nowhere near developed, isn't it, and you sit and go, there is huge amounts of opportunity and scope there.
Kerry Bangle 13:40
It's really exciting. And I think that's somewhere where our profession, the transport profession, where we are very in infantile in how we're using it, and where we're where we're going with it, we're, you know, we're only just scratching the surface of the capabilities of it, and how we can really use it to transform those, you know, seamless journeys and how we plan. Because at the moment, we use quite big transport models that are, you know, they take months to build months to, you know, finesse and make sure that they're accurate and weeks to run. And then they take someone with a brain the size of satin to interpret the results, you know, and invariably, you're like, Oh, I didn't want that one. I want to know this. And, you know, so I don't want to sort of belittle my professional colleagues in that sphere. It's immensely complicated, but I think there's, you know, some of the new tools that we're seeing could help in
Ayo Abbas 14:34
that language learning, learning modules, and all of that thing that can actually do machine learning. And understand what those patterns are, and actually
Kerry Bangle 14:42
Yeah, fascinating, and we're just what, you know, some of my colleagues are in that space, and they're really plugging away at it, but how we, how we embed that into mainstream transport planning is still I think we've got a job to do there, which is exciting.
Ayo Abbas 14:57
So, we had a few more blockers and enablers, but in terms of blockers and things, how can we, as a public sector, and private sector make more of the positive things happen? What things can we change?
Kerry Bangle 15:10
I think I mean, I've, for the majority of my career, I've been in the private sector, but I've always had, as a consultant, and but I've worked for private infrastructure owners in the airport world, I think, the magic is when you understand what each party brings to the equation, and if you can each play to your strengths and your superpowers, if you combine that, then then you get something really powerful. So, there's obviously the private sector can help plug plug skills, skills, gaps and skills needs in, like we talked about, you know, in the in these combined authorities that are setting up, we can come in, skill them up quickly. And then, the intention should always be and I'm very passionate about this is we, we come in, we scale up and we leave, but we leave a legacy that's positive, we don't just sort of, you know, the the analogy of teaching a man to fish, you teach them how to fish, you don't just give him fish. And that's I think we should be teaching our clients and leaving them with, you know, upskilling them in the process, rather than having them reliant on, you know, having to use consultants all the time. So, I think that that's something I'm very passionate about with the work that I do, in particular, for the Department of Transport and other local authorities. You know, the charity sector has a role to play. So amazing organisations like Sustrans, you know, the walking, cycling charity, Transport For All, they have a hugely important, independent voice, that, you know, they can advocate for the user, or those seldom heard groups that don't make it into mainstream planning. And that's where, again, that my profession, we really need to look at what and how we're planning and making sure that we're looking at all different angles, not just, what does the sort of rational man need from the transport network, which is where we were, you know, and to a degree where we still are in some of the way that we appraise projects, you know, it's all about value of time savings. It's not about, you know, productive journeys. It's not about social impact. Yeah, accessibility in its broadest sense. It's about how much time does this save on a journey, because that's the language of the economics that drive the big, you know, government's vision funding. So there's, you know, there's a lot to sort of get into there, and that's a whole nother podcast, probably, but
Ayo Abbas 17:24
the economics of it, I'll be like, it's not my thing.
Kerry Bangle 17:26
I think the most important thing on how we can all work together is I think we've all got a collective responsibility to scale up the next generation, you know, the professionals in what we do, are where we're potentially dwindling in number, you know, particularly the engineering space. If you look at the cohorts of people that are, there's more people leaving the business than are coming in because of, you know, just the, I guess, the careers fashions, you know, engineering isn't particularly well paid compared to some other jobs. And there's
Ayo Abbas 17:59
also the whole thing about retirement, isn't there? A lot of these highly skilled people are retiring?
Kerry Bangle 18:03
Every time? yeah, good luck to them. But you know, we're, we're so the, we're losing, we're losing people, I don't think we're replacing them as quickly as we should be. I mean, construction is a particular issue as well, that's, you know, in the construction sector, that's a particular particularly worrying issue. So collectively, we need to work together about how we skill pick, that you know, that generation up, and it's, you know, it's an exciting area to work in, because the range of skills that we need in transport is is huge. It's really diverse, you know, it's it's data, it's maths, its environmental science, its engagement, its marketing, its, you know, you've you're, you're in it, but I think that there's a real excitement about potentially getting a much more diverse workforce as well, you know, and it's not a traditional sort of, dare I say it kind of white male engineers, it's, it's much more inclusive, and we need to work to make it so. So that's, that's what I'm really excited about.
Ayo Abbas 19:00
Here, here. That's what I'm gonna say on that. So, what role do you think? And how important is it for us to kind of win the hearts and minds of people, you know, to create integrated transport? I mean, how important is it?
Kerry Bangle 19:13
It's fundamental, because we talked about, you know, the, if we're not bringing the user, or the community along with us about what we're trying to do, then we've lost and, you know, build it, and they will come that isn't necessarily the case, and maybe for some of the really big infrastructure projects, like, you know, the Elizabeth line, which I was very fortunate to have worked on, that, you know, though people will come to us those, but it's the smaller kind of interventions that we're seeing in our sort of towns and cities, you know, low traffic neighbourhoods or things like these dial ride buses, you know, the smaller things that are just sort of plugging the gap between the big big system changes. People don't trust them, they might not, you know, they don't use them, they might not be affordable, they might not go to the right destinations and origins, they might not run at the right time. So if we're not bringing people with us and delivering for the user, then then I think we, you know, we may as well not bother getting out of bed. I, I worked on a project in Cambridge, recently, road user charging, which is hugely controversial, you know, charging, yeah, charging people to drive into Cambridge, basically five pounds to drive their car in or within Cambridge. So, you know, residents would pay as well as visitors. Just hugely controversial. And we knew it would be, but I don't think we realised the scale of just how, how controversial it was going to be and how much opposition, you know, we knew there would be opposition, but there was also a lot of support. Yeah. But it was a real hearts and minds thing. You know, going back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, we've done a great job of all the technical work. And I was really proud of the work that we've done as a collective as a team and the client, but, you know, at the end of the day, it didn't, it wasn't enough, you know, the hearts and minds. Weren't there enough. Yeah. It's not those things, because there's, there will obviously be a bunch of people who live within the LTN, who will, who will think this is absolutely marvellous, you know, people with children or vulnerable users don't want cars screaming down their street, you know, it's nice to be able to ride your bike and play a game of football or whatever, you know, kids out on the road. But those drivers who used to rat run through there will be you know, really cross, because, you know, you've you've fetted my divine right to mobility. And I think that's this, you know, 104 and 100, against issue around transport. That's so interesting that there are so many different perspectives. And the other thing that I find funny about about working in transport is everyone thinks they're an expert. Everyone's got a view. Well, have you thought about why don't you do this? What about that? There's, no one would ask a surgeon, you know, well, I wouldn't do it like that. But everyone seems to be able to kind of have a crack at transport planning. Because, you know, it's so embedded in our lives. So it is quite, it is quite fun to be in it. And it's also very, you know, it's very emotional. It's very draining doing these public consultation events, you know, and rightly so, you know, and it's good to get out of the ivory tower and understand what drives people what, what upsets people what's what's in people's minds, and people aren't necessarily rational, you know?
Ayo Abbas 21:21
And I think, I think, such a good point in the hearts and minds, because I think I mean, I live in, I live near Streatham and I've got an LTN going and, and you can see the hearts and minds, it's that issue. It's that emotive part and it's all behavioural change from climate change to all the things we've got to deal with, its that, it's like, How do you communicate the benefits and really listen to people and take them along with you. That's not easy to do in a communication sense of the word. No, it's not. That's that's the bit. You know, this isn't like an equation. Yeah. X plus Y does not equal. It's like, no, it's humans.
Kerry Bangle 23:25
Yeah, so I think those hearts and minds is, you know, stakeholders make or break the project. Absolutely. And if we need to, as professionals, we need to equip the political leaders who are making those decisions, to make informed decisions, you know, be honest about the winners and losers, because there will never be a project that is all Win, win win, you know, there will always be somebody who is negatively affected. And our job is to make sure that we understand who they are and to minimise that negative effect on people and make it, you know, as equitable as we can, and that you and that we're not disadvantaging the, you know, the poorest in society, we need to be using transport investment for, you know, positive social outcomes.
Ayo Abbas 24:08
Brilliant and on that note, I'm gonna say thank you so much for your time, Kerry,
Kerry Bangle 24:11
thank you for having me.
Ayo Abbas 24:16
Thanks for listening to interchange. And remember, it's not just a podcast, interchange is much more. It's also a two day major exhibition and conference taking place on February the 27th and 28th in Manchester Central, Head to www.interchange-uk.com. To find out more.
